this going to be interesting!!! *I am sitting tight and watching*

they arent obeying the rules of war by using civillians as guards, its against the rules of war to intentionally kill a medic, and they do other shit.

Yes, but I don't think we're at war anymore. Those are simplistic attacks from local groups. I don't think they really care who they kill.

Of course Iraqi's don't follow the rules of war. I don't believe mass genocide of your own people is condoned...

Also killing your own people of your country isn't right.

Okay.. I don't know why you're calling it "granting them sovereignty."

It's more like "ignoring responsibilities." Or, "installing puppet leaders."

They're not being granted anything. They're basically being tucked away because the election is coming up. Who are they anyway? Nobody is really going to want to follow this council of whoever they're installing as the presidents. Even after we "leave" there is going to be mass violence there. Pretty much the only reason Iraq wasn't in as much shit as it's in now before we entered is that all the groups that want to shoot each other (and us) were afraid of Saddam. Now that he's gone, this power hole has formed and everyone wants to get in on it. We happen to be in the line of fire.

WE CANNOT JUST 'GRANT THEM SOVEREIGNTY' AND LEAVE.

The Bush council really FUCKED UP major on this one, not anticipating (or not caring) about the nationalism and racism occuring there, which is getting our soldiers killed daily. And it's only getting worse.

And we aren't. We are granting (for lack of better words) them sovereignty, but easing them into the whole scenario over the course of 2 or so years. First, by June 30th, they're Army will have been properly trained to handle riots, etc. as the Coalition is currently doing. At that time, other U.N. countries will be sending in forces to ensure peace is being maintained. At the turn of the new year, elections will incur for the Iraqi people to campaign and elect their own officials. Approxiamtely 9 months after Iraqi elected officials take office, that same elected board will draft their very own constitution. All in all, this process will be aided by the U.S.A. as well as over 7 other U.N. nations. We aren't just leaving as you suppose, we have a very well constructed timeline format for their people to organize themselves, and turn into a country ran by themselves.

Maybe you should read up on your facts, or hear nationally televised speeches and press conferences before you start making accusations that hold no actual bearing. You are simply speculating.

Bush may have done some things wrong, but in a summary of his words, he is not going to just abandon Iraq now. He will not let the Americans that were killed, death's happen in vain. And he isn't.

Didn't I just say that?

Sorry Titus, but you're far too trusting/vein here. Your "watch more speeches" comment really irked me. Do you think these "elected leaders" will help at all? Look at Karzai. The constitution is being drafted by other countries, pretty much. Not exactly in the name of the people. You're telling me to read up on facts, I'm telling you to get a nice whiff of reality. Iraq cannot and will not run on some fake democracy that is going to be set up there. It'll still be a shithole. A shithole with less people thrown into blenders, maybe, but still a violent shithole with suicide bombings.

I don't trust all the speeches that the president makes. The "facts" are presented in a very different manner here, than elsewhere in the world. I'll expand later; I'm going to a baseball game right now.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.....

We should not consider sunk cost.

Well, irregardless, only time will tell, and that is the only stone cold fact either side can present. History doesn't always repeat itself, so taking examples from the past holds absolutely no basis. I, for one, would rather support my President and his decisions while there is nothing we can do about it, than bitch about something we cannot change until the next election. Honestly though, would have rather had Gore in Bush's place? We would be far worse off, but then again, that too is speculation, as is everything you said thus far.

As is everything you've said thus far.

Actually, I got this straight from the President of the United States, as a plan for Iraq in the future. When things are actually going to happen, whether or not the time table is 100% perfect, but close enough, it is no longer speculation.

Bill Clinton did nothing with Monica. So?