I used to have my own personal beliefs of what heaven and hell is. I don't have it "in case".

I'm sorry mjordan I don't believe I articulated myself very well. The argument I was attempting to elaborate was the "reality" concept. Perhaps not so much, but leaning more towards that than anything else. Magic is of course possible, to say it is not is actually being as close minded as you suggest Atheism to be. Is it not possible that we actually live in a world similar to the Matrix? Perhaps maybe an alien species created us and is guiding our evolution. Even yet, similar to the Matrix, maybe everything around you, your whole existence, is but a dream, and you'll awake somewhere else realizing you've been in a comma-like state your whole life.

All of these views are equally as fanciful as the idea of a being who created all life, all matter, all knowledge, all laws of physics. You're one who wants to bring this card to the table, so I ask you if God created everything, where did God come from? Who is this ultimate being?

So far, I believe that I have proven the existence of an ultimate being to be just as likely as my other inadmissable ideas presented above. Now to the point of why I consider myself atheist.

All my life I've seen and felt a scientific world. I've had things proven to me scientifically. Things I see, I touch, I smell, I hear, I taste. I've never once seen a ghost, I've never once seen a miracle, and I've never once heard the voice of God himself through me. I don't believe that God would have created us with the sensory organs we have if he were trying to create a religious race. So I have no basis for believing in God. I've also never seen an alien race, therefore I have no basis for believing we are simply a pawn of an alien race. Since my whole life has been this way, I can only lean toward what I know. I know science. It may be possible that I awake from a comma on an alien planet any minute now. Aliens may reveal themselves to the masses. God could reveal himself to the human race. All of these things are just as likely to happen. One must realize the odds of such an event are too small to even be weighed. They are however possible, and that's why I remain open minded and say that they are so.

I consider myself to be an Atheist because, as I said earlier, I believe in what I know and what I've known all my life. I don't put stock in assertions similar to the ones above. I'm not close minded about these ideas(including God), I just don't believe them to be very possible. I therefore consider myself Atheist.

Before I go I'd just like to comment back on your remark about light-speed and quantum physics. If I'm not mistaken, Einstein conquered the light-speed physics, or atleast what we know of it today. His theory of relativity explains a lot, but we've never had a chance to prove any of this. Of course our laws of physics cannot yet explain quantum physics, it's a fairly new discovery to the human race. Think back to electricity, when it was first discovered, it shook our views on science. Think back to gravity, when it was first discovered, it shook our views on science. Think back to the idea of a round world, when it was first discovered, it shook our ideas on science and the world at large. Quantum Physics is simply where we are at now, given time we will begin to understand it better than we already do. To even imply that Quantum Physics will not someday be tamed is a ludicrous idea.

Alright I'll leave you with that. If you do respond, and I'm sure you will, please don't simply assume an esoteric stance on everything put forth here. Also do not simply ignore my ideas and present your own, comment on what I've said here, prove me wrong if you can. I believe that we are both approaching the same ideas anyways, but perhaps from different sides.

Still number 1. I never said I was religious. And I never said the reason I believe is because I see no reason not to be. I don't see any reason to not be spiritual but that isnt why I am spiritual. I used to be agnostic, I spent all my time looking for reasons as to why god did not exist, instead of both why and why not. So I was agnostic leaning on the side of atheism. As for fearing hell. I have no reason to. That doesnt even make sense.. It can't support your argument, talk about being contradictory. Lets think about it.

If I fear hell I must believe in heaven and hell correct? Therefore I cannot be athiest.

If I am a believer and I do believe jesus christ died for our sins then I also have no reason to fear hell because there is no possible way I could be denied access to heaven.

To me, it seems you make brash assumptions that are not fully thought out in an attempt to piss off another person who does not agree with your views.

Sorry to say this but... You failed.

::Long Sigh::
To start off you can't fail what you didn't attempt. Secondly, I never said you considered yourself to be atheist. That was obvious from your posts. I said what it sounded like, from your first post, is that you were atheist but you were too afraid to admit it. Then, if you didn't notice, you flurried up trying to defend your belief religious beliefs, as anyone in denial would.

True I said fear of hell, but fear of changing your whole beliefs or trying to contradict family teachings goes right along those lines. Going along the lines of a fear of hell, most people have the fear of no afterlife, that's disturbing to a child who's believed that all their life. As I said I really have no interest in talking to you, so please don't even respond to this post, go find a bible somewhere and pretend to read it. Trying to follow your logic is like trying to follow a blind retarded rat through a maze anyhow.

*Longer sigh* It appears to me that the only thing you are trying to do here is make me mad. Which I was not. There was no flurring up... I simply stated your flawed logic about the fear of hell... Hah... What family teachings. I shall go and PRETEND to read my bible... And I shall go PRETEND to talk with god... And PRETEND to pray. And hopefully you can PRETEND to not be an idiot, my logic is fairly complex so I understand your frustration.

I actually predicted that you'd say "longer sigh," really I did, after all you're the only person queer enough on this message board to do so. Like I said, I have no interest talking to a kid such as yourself. You can keep digging your hole deeper by continuing this fruitless argument, or you could just keep quiet while you're behind.

Admins if you want you can go ahead and remove this thread, this kid's obviously too adamant and stubborn to debate anything. I will respond no further to your pathetic and somewhat childish argument, so I guess you can get your last laugh in if you wish.

::Bows Gracefully::

There's actually quite a few people who'd say: *Longer Sigh* and launch into a rebuttal of the person aboves post. Root through all the old threads where's there's arguments like this one and you'll find similar things to: *sigh* *longer sigh*.

Also you don't have the authority to ask the admins to remove the thread (or the super mods or regular mods for that matter) as it isn't even your thread! It's Kagom's choice, or the mods/super mods/admins choice if the thread gets thrown off topic too much.

Heh really? It seemed to be the dumbest thing someone could respond with in my opinion. It seems too predictable. I don't really mead through old posts, you understand.

I don't have authority to ask? So far as I see I have authority to do whatever I please within the bounds of the board itself(as I found out this doesn't include posting nude pics :haha: ).

I'm agnostic, just like MJordan. I like to think everything is possible. Heh who knows..Maybe we are the ignorant ones for not blindly believing in god the way the bible/quran/tora/whatever tells us to. Maybe when we die we'll get to god and he'll be like; yo man, wtf, why didnt you read that holy book and praise me, I put it all over the place, are you fucking blind?! Or maybe nothing will happen and life is just meaningless.

I dont really care anymore and I've grown tired of religious debates, especially the ones that will clearly go nowhere because neither party will admit there's even the slightest possibility for the other to be right, no matter what evidence you may present to them. Like those that are usually on TV, I hate those.

Don't ya just love it when arrogant pricks show up?

I have alot more to say. But it seems that you are trying to end the discussion (Not argument) because you have nothing to add to it. If that is the case, it is fine by me but DON'T EVER act like you are better than someone else, or degrade them, because their views are different from yours and you are too close minded to understand them.

If it's your thread, then yes, you do have the authority to ask. But when it isn't yours and you've become bored with it because people are doing what they always do then you do not have the authority to tell anyone to close the thread. That, as I have said, is up to Kagom if he thinks the thread has served it's full purpose, or the members of staff who might think the thread has also served its purpose or gone off-topic too much.

If, say, you were a manager somewhere and a trainee came up to you and ordered you to make a cup of tea for them, maybe even heat up and butter a couple of crumpets or scones, you wouldn't say yes let alone listen to them as they don't have the authority to do that. If, however, the owner or administrators of the company asked you to do the same thing for them you'd do it instantly.

You have authority as a junior member to do some things, just as some have that of a member and others have it of a senior member. If you don't have the respect of other members, then there's no point in having any authority. Asking members who have been here longer than you, and have a lot more respect than you to close a thread that isn't even yours won't help you get any respect. Nor will your request be carried out.

It's all a question of authority. In this case you don't have it, so don't try and use it. You may be able to produce works of art with words but, as you have shown us, you can be arrogant as well.

And so what if it was predictable? If some things in life weren't predictable then how on earth would anyone have a sense of security? There are people that live their lives on predictable actions, and they are doing just fine. You don't necessarily need to point out every little predictable thing.

I'm not sure... I am Agnostic, but I still heavily lean towards the Christian faith. Thus, I'd have to say I do believe in them.

You don't think this thread has served its full purpose? No one is talking about Heaven and Hell any longer, that seemed to actually end on the first page. THAT was predictable, no one wants to talk about it really, it's a topic that's been brought about too many times. What this thread had transpired to was a pointless argument between me and Pr0xy.

AGAIN, I didn't order an administrator or moderator to close the forum, and in fact I didn't directly ask them. It was even more like a suggestion than anything, and AGAIN I point out a freedom of speech that I have in this General Conversation forum. Perhaps you should read the three basic rules laid down by Sovereign before you come in here acting all high and mighty as if your Senior Rank endows you with some sort of authority. You don't impress me simply because you've posted on www.zelaron.com longer than I have. When you're dead is that something people are going to look back and recognize, you're 2500 some odd posts on www.zelaron.com Lenny? Do you think you're a great individual? When you're laying on you're deathbed are you going to look back with pride because of the countless hours you devoted to Zelaron and your Senior Membership? You don't impress me Lenny. I know Pr0xy says I'm just trying to bust people down, but I'm not doing so. In your case, I'm only bringing you down to my level. You're idea of yourself on this forum is heavily inflated. I may be new to www.zelaron.com Lenny, but I'm not new to this world, I'm not new to the internet, and I'm definitely not new to forums, so get with the program.

Oh and look Tyrant brings the topic back to discussion anyways, so I guess there is no reason to remove this thread. However Lenny, you still need to put some thought into yourself.

Put some thought into myself, eh? What a nice phrase.

...surrounded by other people staying on topic and answring Kagoms question.

You may not have ordered them to but you certaintly gave them permission to close it:

Since when have people been allowed to give permission for something that is not there's to be removed from public view, let alone closed? Maybe they should remove certain posts instead.

Let's see...

1. Serious Topics...yep, this is a serious topic.

2. Try to keep post on-topic...I guess we've gone a bit off topic here...but no-one is actually answering our posts to each other so that can't be too bad.

3. NO FLAMING!...we're not flaming each other. This is merely an argument between two people.

I know number 2 talks about people's opinions, but acting as if you have the authority to get someone to remove a thread is not an opinion.

I'm not looking to impress. I'm on here because I want to have a good time. If I wanted to impress then I would have done something about it in the (nearly) 12 months I have been here.

In fact, yes I do think I'm a great individual. I admit, I think a lot of myself. So sue me. It is a dream of mine to become a published author. If I didn't think I was a great individual then I wouldn't even bother to try and fulfill my dreams. If you want others to think you are good (not necessarily great) then the first step is thinking of yourself as good.

By the time I die, Zelaron will probably be a forgotten memory. No matter how successful it may become, there is a very small chance that Zelaron will be around in 60-odd years. If it still is then it won't matter much to me as I'll be suffering from old age memory loss.

Again with the impressing, geez.

Sorry?!

*cough**cough*

How nice of you to notice...

I wouldn't say 6 months is new to anywhere. As for new to anything else, why would I think you are? Everyone on this board is over 13 years old.

We have a program which we have to follow now?!

How nice picking a persons post to pieces. You ought to try it sometime, it's quite a good stress relief excercise.

----------

As for the topic...I've already stated my beliefs and cant really add anything to them apart from the fact that I don't believe in any type of afterlife (including reincarnation) as I just cant believe it can happen. I usually look towards science for answers and levae religion to the religious people.

So you think because you make a longer post that makes you a better author? Longer stories aren't always best. The best stories are the ones that contain meaning. I don't know why you continue to argue about the thread closing. Thank you for quoting me, that makes me feel much better. If you're only going to argue something pointless, then there's no point in arguing at all. I obviously was granting no one permission. A point from your writing: Look at who the quote came from. A member, Junior Member if you like. Not a webmaster giving permission to an admin. It obviously wasn't an order. It was a suggestion to the admins/moderators to remove the thread that had turned sour. I won't even acknowledge that again, because it's been settled, you just keep dipping your hand in and swirling it around.

I don't get stressed, and I don't spend a long time requoting someone trying to find a flaw in an otherwise strong argument.

When you get a book published let me know, I'll order a copy.

For later reference, don't say remove but closed. Only the worst threads are removed.

And no, I don't think that the longer post make me the better author.

You'll be the first I tell if I do get a book published, and I can bet you that you will hate my writing style...:p

If you want to see what I'm currently doing you can find things on my site (www.theineffablelenny.co.nr) under the My Books section. The two I have worked on most are 03. The Way of the Imp and 08. The Power Pernicious. 14. The Return of the Imp isn't going too badly either. Unfortunately, they're all from the one series. Anything else I'm writing/planning to write isn't actually available for download yet...something I'll have to rectify when I finish changing my site design.

I wouldn't put them up for download with all the infringement going on around here ;)

Nnh, don't worry, no-one in their right minds would try and copy my writing things. And anyway, I'm pretty sure that all are password protected so nothing can be changed etc, I've put the little copyright thingy on my site and a notice on the front page...and all have my name on. Not to mention that if someone does try and copy I've got all the originals with dates showing when they were created, last modified etc. Not many people would think of changing their computer clocks to try and pass something off as their own.

Thanks for the idea bro ;)

EDIT: Hey S2 as you are new the this forum let me give you some advice. RARELY are threads closed or removed. I've seen many threads come back to life a few months after they were posted because they made a valid point or held a great discussion inside of them. And like Lenny said, insulting respected members or disrespecting them in a anyway isnt the best way to get respect on this forum.

Soo... your basically telling us you have a "religous buffet line" ? I mean shit you jsut pick and choose and make up your own religon...

Doesn't make sense to me :-/