Quarter-Finals! Magus vs. Raziel
 

Arena: Unhallowed Ground

In the Red Corner, the arcane tyrant, the master of the night, from Chrono Trigger: Magus!!!

And in the Blue Corner, the reaper of souls, the wrathful sevant of Kain, from Soul Reaver: Raziel!!!

The moon shines full, but is obscured by low-lying clouds and fog. The air is unnaturally damp, and the dark sorcerer, Magus waits, perched atop a crumbling stone crypt. He scans the scarred terrain, scythe in hand, waiting for his opponent. The demonic Raziel stalks through the cemetary's twisted Spectral Realm version. As he makes his way past the rows of upturned graves, he sees and senses an unusual amount of undead disturbance. He finds a willing corpse, and quickly forces himself from the ethereal plane and into the physical world. Within moments, the two combatants spot one-another, separated by only about 50 feet. Suddenly, the earth shudders, and as both warriors look around, startled by the shake, a legion of undead begins to claw it's way out of the graves and towards our combatants. There are mere moments before either fighter will be overcome by the army of zombies that have come to greet them. Will there be anything left when the carnage has subsided?

Well, magus would win this one easy. Well il basicly start by copy pasting what i posted in his first battle.

Magus would win. Raziel wouldnt do much damage in melee and his glyph would be close to useless(Healing Magus). Magus is fast and has a good evasion. His helmet protect him from any status and he got a good def for started and like i said Raziel weapon wouldnt be a worry. He survived the Darkness. Has enought skills to teach a few trick to the Master Of War. :) It wont be 1 dark creature that will slow him :killgrin:

You're overlooking a few key elements, Kuja.

1. Magus has a good advantage with his changing elemental defense, but there's a hole in that plan. That particular trait doesn't include light-based magic, sound-based magic, force-based magic, air-based magic, earth-based magic or spirit-based magic. Only Lightning, Water, Ice, Fire and Shadow. All of these weapons and spells would cut right through Magus' defense.

The Material Reaver (spirit-based, Raziel's standard Reaver)
The Light Reaver (light-based, if powered up it can blind enemies)
The Air Reaver (air/force-based, if powered up it will knock an enemy down on every hit)
The Earth Reaver (it is the second most powerful Reaver that Raziel can use, and if powered up, it can hit multiple targets with a single strike)
The Force Glyph
The Earth Glyph
The Sound Glyph
The Blind Spell (Light Reaver Spell)
The Gust Spell (Air Reaver Spell)
The Quake Spell (Earth Reaver Spell)

The only Reaver that I will not allow is the Spirit Reaver, and that's because it is an end-game weapon, and Raziel would kill Magus in a single hit with it.

2. Magus has an extremely limited amount of MP to use. Darkmatter alone will only last him a few uses and then he'll be up shit-creek.

3. Magus is no slouch with melee combat, but he's nothing special either. His melee attacks do less damage than Chrono's, Ayla's, Robo's and Frog's, meaning that the only two characters that he's technically stronger than are Marle and Lucca. That's not saying much. Raziel specializes in melee combat, and is armed with weaponry and skills that far surpass those of Magus.

With those things in mind (along with the fact that I have beaten Defiance and now have a greater understanding of Raziel's powers) I don't really see how Magus could win.

His barrier change doesnt actualy absorb anything magic exept one thing. The only weakness it has is that he need to deactivate it to cast his strongest spell. Which make him lose a turn. He can reactivate his Barrier Change again by casting a fire, lightning or ice spell. But then again in this match he doesnt need to use his strongest spell. Or he could also get far away before removing his Barrier Change to cast his very strong spell.
http://server2.uploadit.org/files/181203-MagusOwn.jpg So being earth, light or whatever. It would still be absorbed.
When you fight him he never run out of mana so he can cast spell as much as he want.

His helmet protect him from any status. So no blind for Magus :).

As for melee damage i dont see how he could manage to deal lot. With an evil sword. As the only reason for his weakness to the masamune in Chrono Trigger is because to survive the darkness he had to become completly dark. Leaving him vulnerable to a sword of good.


Note: Magus can be stronger then anyone in melee. He is already close to other but not as strong as Chrono, Ayla or Frog in normal. If equiped with his DoomSickle his attack Double when 1 ally is down and when both are down his attack triple. I guess it's almost some luck for Raziel that he doesnt have ally in this battle ;)

Magus also can hover, if not fly, as seen when you dash in Chrono Trigger, which would offer a nice evasion and mobility advangate.

wait i thought that only one type of spell is allowed to damage magus in barrier change?
so like one turn only fire spells or another turn only ice spells and etc
being that you always know what barrier.. raziel would know too.. and im sure raziel could adapt quickly so he can inflict damage on magus

It's depending on spell he cast. If he cast fire it will turn to fire only, If ice well ice only and if lightning well you get the idea it would be lightning only. Considering that even if he adapt itwould still mean his use of magic attack would be futile. So far Raziel cant do much more then get owned.

Magus is incapable of casting any type of Earth, Light, Sonic, Force or Spirit spells, and that's because those types of magic dont' exist in Chrono Trigger. Therefore, he has no defense against them. The barrier change wouldn't work against those types of magic because Magus doesn't know those types of magic. The reason that Magus' elemental-change barrier works is because he knows spells from those five elemental schools.

As for the melee damage issue, Magus only had great defense against Chrono's attacks because his party used physical weapons. Raziel's Reaver is a spirit blade, and therefore doesn't adhere to the same rules as normal swords. Plus, the Soul Reaver is an inherently good weapon. It was forged to be the weapon of the vampire hero, it was forged to protect Nosgoth against the dark forces of the Hylden. Therefore, Magus automatically has a weakness against it.

I don't have a ton of time, so I'll get back to this tomorrow.

The barrier change of Magus isnt a protection against spell he know. It is a protection that absorb all magic energy and the only reason he isnt able to block/absorb the spell he cast is because if his barrier would the spell wouldnt be able to go out of the barrier and would actualy heal him. So Magus could keep his distance easily considering the size of the arena and his speed while he cast spell to destroy Raziel.

Edit:

Spirit based weapon are always magic based wich would render Raziel totaly useless even Robo laser spin are absorbed by the barrier of Magus so it would mean his barrier block anything not pure physical that isnt the same element of his barrier.

Edit:

Oh, and if your wondering. Sword that does damage from wrong element would heal too. Here is an example. If Crono use Ice Sword or Ice Swirl and Magus isnt at *Ice Only* Well it would heal him.

btw robo spin is shadow type

good references for techs:
http://www.ffextreme.com/ct/tech.php
http://www.square-haven.com/games/sn...ngle_techs.php

oh and it just crossed my mind..
how is "technique" and "spell" differentiated here?
would the only way to differentiate be entirely based on whether its elemental or physical?

Nah, it's not cause they are elem or not. Magic energy is based on concentration and use of the mind. Sword or whatever technique are based on concetration and use of the body. Even if the body doesnt attack itself it is the body and not the mind is used to create the attack.

Here a good example Crono Slash is created by concentration and use of the body/sword to attack and Crono Luminaire is an attack that is created by his mind.

If Crono does Fire Whirl his technique is still made by his body. The only reason he does elemental damage is because Lucca imbue Crono sword with fire. Here is another example if someone use a Lightning Sword. The sword technique remain technique. But the damage is magical unless it is a technological electricity.

so cartman farting fire would be a "technique".. unless someone like lucca ignited it with "magical" fire

how about abilities of those like jean grey or professor x or magneto or pyro from xmen?
whats seperating pyro's powers or the guy from fantastic four from a fire spell sent by magus?

If cartman farted and lighted it. It would be a technique that required technology/equipment (Lighter). If Lucca lighted it well it would be a little diff. the fart would be enchanced by the magic and it and it would steal be a technique. But what would make the damage ? The fart or the fire ? :)

Jean Grey, Professor X and Magneto have power related to psychic powers.

As for fantastic four i have no clue what that is. If i knew whatever that was i could tell you. Anyway, if you wanna discuss more about this subject you should make a new thread.

Raziel's Wraith Blade is his own soul wrapped around his arm. It's not a magical weapon, because it doesn't use mana to sustain itself. It's an energy blade, not a magical one. There's no magic involved, it's pure spirit energy. Plus, in Legacy of Kain: Defiance, it's proven that the Soul Reaver in both physical and wraith forms is capable of destroying magical barriers, so Magus' elemental defense change would only last him a short while before Raziel had destroyed it entirely.

That's entirely speculative. There are no Earth, Air, Force, Sonic, Light or Spirit spells in Chrono Trigger, therefore those types of magic don't even exist in the world that Magus comes from. That's like using rat poison against a completely alien form of life. His barrier wouldn't be able to absorb any of those types of spells because those types of magic don't exist where Magus comes from. How can you have a defense against something you've never encountered before?

Also, let's not forget that Magus' elemental change barrier disappears after he's lost half of his life. He's not going to be able to cast continuously while both fighting off zombies and evading Raziel. Half of his life will be gone rather quickly, and then he'll be shit out of luck in terms of elemental defense.

Raziel can freeze Magus in the air with TK and slam him right back into the ground if he wishes. His TK meter constantly regenerates, and it takes a lot of uses to deplete it entirely. If Raziel is capable of telekinetically controlling a creture as powerful as Janos Audron, who was possibly hundreds of thousands of years old when Raziel fought him, then he can do it to Magus. All he has to do is wait for Magus to begin casting a spell and then lock on and slam away.

Plus, it's was never shown that Magus is capable of flying and casting at the same time. All of his spells are area attack spells, not long-range spells, therefore he'd have to be close to Raziel and on the ground in order for them to have effect. Raziel doesn't need to be anywhere near Magus in order to defeat him. His TK grab and TK throw abilities all have incredible range, and if Magus lifts into the air, he'll be even more susceptible to TK manipulation.

Magus doesn't stand a chance. Raziel has elemental attacks and weaponry that Magus has no defense for, Magus' biggest advantage disappears halfway through the fight, and he has to be immobile to cast. He's as good as dead.

He doesnt protect against diff. type of element. His barrier absorb any magic energy that isnt of the type he casted. When a caster use the spell *Reflect* it reflect the magic no matter if you know it or not. Saying that the barrier wouldnt work against certain magic is like saying the Soul Reaver cannot break magic barrier because it never seen that one. Or that Raziel cant win because he doesnt have the masamune that frog wielded. Magus Barrier is not made against a few thing. Magus Barrier is made to absorb any magic energy even magic damage from weapon exept the one he cast so he can get a spell out of his barrier.

The barrier doesnt disapear because of life loss. It disapear when he *Risk Casting Strongest Spell*. He cannot sustain his barrier while casting his strongest attack and it is normal. He doesnt need to cast Dark Matter during this match he aint getting a challenge here.

magus is quite fast and he doesnt walk/run he float. He can move arround quite easily and much faster then Raziel. The Zombie would be dismantled in no time. He wouldnt even need to worry about them. As his spell hit every monster.

It isnt because something is old that it is smart or resistant.
Anyway, Magus cannot lose control of his body. He is protected against all status by his helmet. TK is useless against him.

They are shown to take the whole battle field. Which is something very big. Also, his only spell that is point blank area effect is Lightning 2. Once he join your party he will move in middle to cast it. For other spell he wont! He aim them at the middle which mean he has a control of where the spell will hit on the battle field. No matter where he is he will be able to cast on his target. He might not be able to cast while moving but he doesnt need to stop for long to cast. Raziel does need to be in melee range as i already stated Magus is imune to all status. So his TK is useless.

Are absorbed
Even the Masamune alone was still no match for him and it was a weapon that he was weaker to! How could he be even weaker to Soul Reaver then he was to the Masamune!?

It actualy disapear when he *Risk Casting Strongest Attack*
He doesnt need to cast his strongest attack.

Raziel would be bothered by Zombie as well but even more considering he isnt has fast. He would need to kill them or he would have to get slowed down and take damage while zombie become in greater number on him slowing him till he stop and dealing more and more damage as the number grow. If he kill them he might end up losing the match because the blade will be arroused and that could lead to disaster for Raziel.

Magus can keep distance easily. They both have zombie after them but Magus is faster, float and has plenty spell to deal with unwanted crowd.

Raziel cant even do anything to Magus from range and from close range the damage is small (If by miracle he reach Magus). There is absolutly no possible way for Raziel to win.

TK isn't a "status effect." Both Raziel and Kain immune to all status ailments as well, and they are both susceptible to TK. Therefore, so is Magus.

Either way, the barrier wouldn't defend against Raziel's spells because they're not mana-based, they're soul-based. There's a difference. It's a completely different type of magic that Raziel is using. Magus' barrier wouldn't be able to defend against Raziel's Reaver or spells because his barrier reacts to mana energies, not soul energies. It's like having flood insurance on your car and then it gets blown up in a fire.

Wrong. Magus needs to be engaged in melee distance combat in order to strike with Ice 2, Fire 2, Bolt 2, Dark Bomb, Dark Mist, Black Hole or Dakmatter. That's why he has to actually engage in up-close combat in order to cast spells. His spells may be ranged, but he has shown no ability to cast at great distance, only a maximum of 15 feet or so.

His barrier disintegrates entirely halfway through the battle, dude. It doesn't just deactivate for Darkmatter and then reactivate after he's done. Once his barrier disappears, it's gone for the rest of the fight. Plus, if he's sustaining a magical barrier the entire time, that requires concentration and focus. If he's severely wounded, he'll lose the ability to contiinue holding the barrier up.

So, to summarize, Magus' barrier is completely useless because it's a mana-based defense mechanism, and Raziel's spells are soul-based. TK works on Magus because both he and Raziel share the same immunities and none of those immunities include TK. Magus needs to be within a certain range of his opponent to attack, because he's never demonstrated an ability to cast at great distances. Magus' barrier dissipates due to severe injury because sustaining a magical barrier takes concentration and focus.

Oh, and in Defiance, the Reaver consuming Raziel is no longer a problem. Raziel figures out a way to feed the Reaver souls and keep it from draining himself. He uses the souls that he feeds to the Reaver to cast his Reaver Spells. No dice.

Magic is magic it isnt because it use soul or mana. The energy is magical it isnt the casting cost that he absorb it is the magical damage which including if a weapon does magical damage. So it would still absorb so all reaver element are kinda healer.

Raziel damage is still very low on Magus when he actualy doesnt heal him and even if Magus need to be at about 15 meter to cast his spell. I highly doubt Raziel can make it in time before Magus is gone again to gain distance. From what i read TK ability of Raziel are far from great (unlike Kain) and his main strenght are his elemental reavers (Which are working mostly as healer because of Magus Barrier) Raziel is suposed to be very evasive. Which is something good against melee attack mostly. Magus is very evasive too. Tossing Magus a little here and there wouldnt do damage to Magus. It would just be annoying a little.

Magus could stand still and get a beating and it would still not harm him much. Hell, the strongest Sword in Chrono Trigger (rainbow) is merly more then a scratcher on a critical hit and in here he got an armor even better and wear an helmet that is the strongest in the game to the exeption of ozzy pants that is cursed. Being said that Raziel wouldnt be able to harm Magus and the Zombie would probably not be able to do more then smell bad! There is no way Raziel can win. Magus could also equip a Prism Specs accessories making his physical damage do 50% more damages. (As if he wasnt already strong enought ;))

Magus says: Lavos was my only real challenge...

I would be highly obliged if you'd explain the entire theory of mana to me. If there is more than one theory, please explain them all. If there is no link between mana and any spiritual existance, then I will accept what you have said. However, the two seem very similar to me.

1. Aye, Magus is the most evasive character in Chrono Trigger by far.

2. I don't believe Magus would have the benefit of any accessory besides one specifically for him. It tends to fall into the same category as the Final Fantasy rule. I would say he could use a Gold Stud (75% MP Reduce to Cast), but very few others . However, this is just my view of it. In an earlier battle, I mentioned that he could have physical damage reduction from a safe helm, but that was only if he was able to equip it. I never recieved a response to this statement.

Because of this, I would assume that Magus has access to the following.

Armor: Gloom Cape, RavenArmor
Helm: OzziePants, Gloom Helm (Protection from Status Effects)
Accessories: Gold Stud (75%mp reduction), Magic Ring (+6 Magic), Flea Vest (+12 Magic Defense)

I say the Magic Ring for the same reason I say Gold Stud. Magus is the primary spellcasting force of the game. If anyone is suited for these items, it is him. Also, the Flea Vest is open to him because of the same reason OzziePants is open to him. Flea and Slash are Ozzie's... uh... bitches, and... well, if you've played the game, you'll know. Otherwise, just let it be.





Anyhow, after much deliberation, I would voice my thoughts on the barrier issue. I believe that the barrier would work against magic not seen in Chrono Trigger. The argument that it would not work because of a lack of existance (disregarding the nature of the barrier, I might add) of the type of spell is purely speculative. My thoughts, however, have some backing.

Magus is not the type of being to have some magic spells. He is adept in all forms of magic with dark magic as a specialty. If there was a character in the game who used Earth magic, then Magus would be adept in Earth magic as well. His barrier would guard against Earth magic. If Raziel were in Chrono Trigger, and he could use different categories of magic, then Magus would be able to cast those different categories of magic, and his barrier would work against those as well. Magus is only limited to the spells he possesses by the bounds of the game. If set in a larger, outside-the-game, atmosphere, he would be much more diverse in his magic abilities.

Therefore, I would have to believe that, even though he does not have access to other forms of magic in-game, his barrier would be effective against all forms of magic.



I will also agree with Kuja on the issue of the barrier's dissapearance. Magus discards his barrier to cast the spell only because he decides to change his strategy. (This is, note, during a battle against three heroes, not one. So there is no reason for his current strategy to follow any previous ones.) He does not need to have high hit points in order to keep his barrier up. On the contrary actually, there is not one characater in Chrono Trigger that becomes weaker as hit points are depleted. Either the character becomes stronger (through spellcasting) or they are not effected. Because of this, I would not believe that Magus loses his barrier for any reason other than he chose to discard it.

Now, that was good ;) Gota love Jackie Chang Adventure!

Anyway back on topic. No matter what the casting cost is.
MP (Most RPG)
TP (Phantasy Star)
Gems (Soul Blazer)
FP (Mario Rpg)
Souls (Raziel and Kain Games)
Reg(UO)
And more...
If it's magic. It is magic.
Fire weapon
Ice weapon
Lightning weapon
and so on...
Are also doing magic damage.
Unless for fire weapon it would actualy be put in gas and lighted up with something none magical. Every now and then.
Or that the ice one would be in a pack of dry ice.
Or lightning would be working with duracell or something.

Well i dont think i need to make more example. Im sure everyone understood ;)

Okay, one way or another, I'm not going to convince anybody of the difference between soul energies and mana, and it's a fruitless argument. His Reaver Spells aren't what is going to defeat Magus anyway. The Reaver itself will.

The faulty assumption that you all seem to be under is that the Wraith Blade is a magical weapon, and it's not. It's an energy blade that has the ability to channel certain types of, magic through it. The Reaver requires no mana or soul energy to sustain itself, it just exists. Like a lightsaber with a mind of it's own. Therefore, Magus' barrier has no effect on it.

Secondly, it has been proven that the Masamune is not inherently a good-natured blade. In Chono Cross, it is revealed only that the blade's nature reflects it's master, hence the reason why it was an evil blade in Chrono Cross. The Reaver acts in the same fashion. Raziel wields the Reaver with the intention of restoring balance to Nosgoth. Those are heroic intentions, therefore the blade reflects his good nature. Therefore, Magus is susceptible to damage from it, regardless of which elemental Reaver Raziel uses. Why would it not matter which elemental Reaver he uses? Because the elemental energies held within each Reaver are not magical. They are the pure natural essence of the element represented. Magus' barrier doesn't protect him if he gets caught in a landslide because it's not magical rock, it's just natural rock falling on him. The same attributes are given to the Reaver.

Raziel's TK abilities are exactly equal to Kain's about two thirds of the way through Defiance. There's a point in the game where you have to play as Kain fighting against Raziel and then play as Raziel fighting agsinst Kain right afterwards. During the fight, both Kain and Raziel are capable of using the exact same types of telekinetic attacks against one another.

Raziel has a particlualrly nasty TK attack called "Stasis Field" which locks the enemy in place for about ten seconds, which would be more than enough time for Raziel's Wraith Blade to cut right through Magus' scrawny hide.

Either way, there's not much to say about this fight. Trying to argue that the Reaver Spells would cut through Magus' barrier is pointless becuase they're not his most powerful attacks. The Reaver and his TK abilities are his greatest asset, and neither of those abilities are magical in nature, therefore, Magus has no defense against them.

So the light reaver is some sort of duracell powered spirit ? It is magic and elemental a fire sword would be absorbed by Magus. Robo Spin laser is technological and not actual magic and it is absorbed as well. So i dont see how the reaver elemental damage wouldnt be absorbed.

The masamue aint even close to be a killer on Magus it is just better then the other. The element would still be absorbed as i mention in the begining of this post and earlier one is absorb Robo laser spin which is elemental but not magical. The good intention wouldnt actualy be the weakness that Magus as. It is because of both together. If you equip any other sword on frog. It wont do the same and that doesnt mean he stop having good intention with a diff. weapon...

It's hard to cut throught skin with something that doesnt really hurt and mostly something that if on a element it would actualy heal.

He does against the reaver element. Magus absorb the elements from Robo attacks and it is technological element. So he would absorb is as well when it is the Reaver elemental.

Magus could go in Melee with Raziel and he would counter attack very often with his spells. Raziel would end up owned in no time. As Magus unlike many character can counter to anything that damage him no matter the ammount.

It's a technological attack that mimics magic, dude. It uses mana to be executed, hence the reason that it requires MP for Robo to use. Raziel's Reavers don't use any mana to be used, they are the purified esssences of the elements they represent. If Raziel uses the Water Reaver against Magus he's not using a magical elemental water attack. He's hitting him with a weapon made of actual swirling, freezing water. Magus' shield absorbs magical energy, you said it yourself, and while the Reaver Spells being absorbed by the shield are debateable, the Reaver is not. The Reaver isn't magical in nature, therefore his barrier wouldn't absorb it. If Chrono uses an ice-based sword against Magus, he's using a sword that was magically given elemental ice properties, that's why his attacks will be absorbed. Raziel's weapon isn't the same because there's no magic involved in the functionality of the Reaver.

You completely ignored what I just said. Both the Masamune and the Soul Reaver are supernatural weapons that reflect and empower the intentions of the user. Frog uses the Masamune and when he does, it is a good-natured weapon because of his intentions, therefore it hurts Magus where other normal weapons don't. The same applies to the Reaver. Raziel uses it with the intention of restoring balance to Nosgoth, therefore it is is good-natured weapon, therefore it will injure Magus as well.

Raziel is the far superior melee combatant. All of his attacks and abilities are available to him whether he's on the ground or in the air, while Magus cannot cast spells or attack effectively while in the air. Raziel has the added bonus of his Stasis Field attack which will lock Magus in place for up to ten seconds. Plus, if Magus tries to flee, Raziel can pull him right back with his TK grab. Also, if Raziel wants to be absolutely sure of his victory, he can use the Material Reaver instead of one of his elemental Reavers, and it will do normal damage to Magus because it has no elemental properties. Magus doesn't stand a chance.

Raziel: "Your soul isn't good enough to be fed to the Reaver. I'll watch our undead friends devour your miserable carcass."

Here is a few example of what would be magic acording to you.

Chrono Trigger.
So Slash is an magic attack ?
Cylcone is a magic attack as well ? (Melee attack that hit nearby creature)
Triple Kick is magic ? If you remember correctly and im sure you do. The god of war says Ayla CANNOT use magic but it does consume MP.
The god of war also say robo cannot have magic because he is a machine and they have no inner strength.

Final Fantasy 9
Steiner Swd Skill! Magic ?
Zidane Trance Skill! Magic ?

Super Mario RPG
Mario jump is a magic ?

Do i need to say more?

It's not because it is MP dependent that it is magic.

He has good intention to deafeat Magus. This is why it doesnt affect other boss. As it is to help his time and his friend. Even tho he will be there after Magus to help. His masamune will not be like it was against Magus as it isnt his objective. Just as Magus isnt part of the balance Raziel want to Restore to Nosgoth and for the same reason the 2nd time you fight Magus the Masamune doesnt have it's effect the 2nd time you fight Magus if you decide to. Cause it is no longer his objective to stop Magus. Since Magus didnt create Lavos like they were thinking to begin with. He only summoned it to destroy it. He shown he wanted to stop Lavos at all cost.

The point is that the elemental reaver heal magus and the physical one hardly hurt. In melee combat he is superior granted. But what the point is that if Raziel can do nothing more then scratch or heal. He wont be able to win.

Magus Spell are far from superior to the one Raziel got.
Raziel weaponry is supeior to the one of Magus. But it heal or scratch Magus.
Magus weaponry can deal much more damage considering the scratch/heal level of the Raziel weapon.

Magus Says "Your history! Play with fire and you get burned."

Um... I didn't think that the Masamune hurt Magus because it was good... I thought it hurt Magus because it was made of Dreamstone.

Okay, let's really deconstruct Magus' abilities, shall we?

In the second battle with Magus (the optional one in the Dark Ages) his strategy changes entirely. During this second battle, Magus' barrier does not work. In fact, Magus casts no magic until he's lost about half of his life. Why? Why would he choose to use a less effective strategy against opponents that have already defeated him once before?

I'll tell you my theory. It's because his barrier doesn't work outside of his castle. While on his own home turf, he has enough power at his command to single-handedly tear holes in time. But, when he gets sucked into a portal sending him 10,000 years into the past, he finds himself stranded. Outside of his domain, he loses a great deal of his power. Considering that Raziel is not fighting Magus in his castle, it could be argued that Magus' barrier doesn't work at all.

Plus, it's also a fact that after Magus joins your party, normal weapons and melee attacks from enemies can do him normal damage. It could be argued that his weapon defenses are also attached to his castle. So, it's very likely that in this fight, Magus doesn't have any special defenses against weapons at all.

A second argument that I could pose is that even if Magus' barrier somehow managed to work in this arena, he's got one major weakness in it. During the first fight with Magus in Chrono Trigger, the player is told by the game which spell type Magus is weak against at any given moment. Considering that Crono and his friends never encountered Magus before, and therefore they didn't know anything about his elemental-change barrier, that obviously means that they can tell what his elemental weakness is just by looking at him. Perhaps his aura glows a certain color or maybe it's something else, but obviosuly Magus has some sort of visible giveaway that alerts enemies as to what his elemental weakness is. Raziel can change Reavers instantly, and therefore he can damage Magus at any time with almost no preparation.

Laser Spin causes "Shadow-type damage." That's Spekkio's exact quote. Robo's shadow-type attacks use MP and mimic magic, Spekkio said it himself. It's a magical attack, the Reaver is not.

The Masamune loses it's advantage over Magus in the second fight because Frog chooses to fight him out of revenge. That's a negative emotion. Raziel has been thrown into this fight against his will, he's not choosing to go up against Magus any more than Magus chose to go up against Raziel. Therefore, Magus is a threat to Raziel's life, and if he's a threat to Raziel's life he's a threat to Raziel restoring balance to Nosgoth. Therefore, Raziel is fighting what he percieves to be an enemy of Nosgoth's restoration and therefore he is fighting Magus with the heroic intention of surviving and continuing on his quest. The Reaver cuts right through Magus' defenses.

Either way, you have no arguments to fight back with. I've responded to everything you've said and Raziel has an airtight defense. Let me summarize this as simply as possible.

1. The Reaver is not magical, therefore Magus' barrier does not absorb it. You said it yourself, Magus' barrier absorbs magical energy, and the Reaver is not magical in nature. Robo's Laser Spin attack is magical, Spekkio says it himself in Chrono Trigger, that's whay Magus can absorb it.

2. Magus' barrier either doesn't work outside of his castle (which is why he can't use it when he joins your party or when you fight him the second time) or if it does Raziel can tell what Magus' elemetal weakness is just by looking at him. Plus, because he's not in his castle, Magus weapon defenses might not work at all, considering that normal melee attacks from enemies do him damage when he joins your party.

3. In this fight, Raziel is using the Reaver to defend himself so that he can continue his quest to restore balance to Nosgoth. He did not willingly pick this fight with Magus, and Magus did not willingly pick this fight with Raziel. Raziel percieves Magus as a threat to his life, and therefore a threat to Nosgoth's balance. Therefore, he is using the Reaver with good intentions, therefore it does normal damage to Magus.

4. Magus has absolutely no defense against TK attacks, therefore his advantage of flight is nullified, The instant he tries to lift off into the air, Raziel will pull him right back down. Plus, Raziel can deal him normal damage any time he wants by simply slamming him through a few feet of concrete headstones, or into a crypt wall.

5. This one is my favorite. Magus has no ability to heal himself whatsoever. His only opportunity to heal himself is if his magic barrier works (which I've already basically proved that it won't in this fight) if Raziel casts a Reaver Spell that he can absorb (the Reaver is not magical, therefore it won't heal Magus) and if Raziel isn't paying any attention to what Magus' elemental weakness is, because obviously, he can tell just by looking at him. Basically, Magus has no chance in Hell of healing himself.

Magus can't possibly win.

Raziel: "Nice scythe. Let's see how it looks imbedded in your skull."

That's not why. The reason he doesnt have it in that time is because he didnt prepare for the battle. He had prepared to face Lavos when you are in his castle and you catch him while he was summoning Lavos after he was done doing his preperation.

It would be again preparation he did.

Actualy, Frog seen Magus fight in the past which would explain why you know his weakness. Anyway, the element of spell Magus cast arnt the type that Raziel has. Which mean Raziel can change his reaver all he want it still wont be the right element.

Spekkio doesnt say anything that say it is magic he says only that he is a big toy, he isnt alive and that he cannot give him magic. But his Laser Spin does Shadow Damage and would suffice. He does NOT say that it is magic. A ligther does fire damage yet it isnt magic is it ? Robo Tackle use MP and it is not magic. Like i said with many other attacks in several games require use of mp that arnt magic. Mp is simply mental power. A machine can achieve a high mental power yet has no will. What is done with it can be like Chrono Slash, Cylcone or Ayla Triple Kick. Mental Power can be used to create magic or to enchance the ability. A Robot as no will power as proven in the game. They only have mental power which is something machine can have. In Chrono Trigger Magic user need 2 things. A will of their own (Spekkio and Lucca explain that part) and living during time and higher where magic existed(Told by Spekkio). If they a character did not fit the 2 category they couldnt use MAGIC. Which is why Robo AND Ayla cannot have magic as he say to them individualy since they do not fit both category.

Wrong, Raziel would still be able to go on with his quest after the tournament. He would be eleminated from the tournament. He wouldnt actualy be striped of his *life*.
He would be able to restore Nosgoth and the tournament wouldnt have anything heroic about it. Nor, would it affect Raziel quest in ANY way.

Magical and Elemental. Your argument that a machine (Which speikko say clearly that he has no willpower to mesure and that Lucca say as well when she get told to watch out Robo might be evil she says. "Robot do what they are programed" So they have no will of their own proven by 2 character which is why Robo doesnt use and cannot use magic even in the game it is said. I dont see how i even still need to state it again and again. The mimic magic would be just like saying if i threw some dry ice at someone i would be casting a ice spell.

Read what i said up there about his barrier.

He cant die... He will be able to come back out of the tourney to restore his balance this *threat* is none existant.

A headstone so strong as to deal damage when weapon barely scartch ? I dont think so. TK would only gain time for doing nothing really and it's not like Raziel can always do it. he need to regen his TK bar.

Raziel doesnt even have a ice, fire or lightning attacks. Which mean it would heal a lot. Read above for Barrier.

Raziel can't possibly win.

Magus: "I guess you wernt prepared for the void!"

Actually, Robo does have a will... He takes your side during his side-quest in the future (which is against what he was programmed to do... and, no, Lucca did not reprogram Robo to aid them when she (keyword) repaired him.)

Here a part of the script i just went to fetch quickly showing that Lucca does reprogram.

Marle
What?!
It might attack us!

Lucca
I'll make sure it won't.*
Machines aren't capable of evil...
... humans make them that way.**

Marle
Lucca, you... pity them, don't you?

Lucca
Let me get to work now, okay?

*She will make him not be able to. Isnt that a proof ?
**They judge based on what they are programed to do. This isnt a will of his own.

Amazing...

Anyhow, the first * is sufficient.

Heh, true but i dont know how long ago you played the game. So i figured that by puting more would help refreshing the memory of the event when it happen. :)

i dont know about you "game crazy" folks.. but thats the only definition that im going to believe
however, in the context of this zeleron melee.. as you people are the creators and have the last say.. whatever you say goes

the above does not mean that she completely reprograms the robot.. but makes "adjustments" to make sure that it will not be "evil"
if the robot were pushed to certain point why wouldnt it be able to "override" this limitation?

the ability of a robot to have a "will" is highly debatable.. the definition of the "will" is a grey line and constantly touched issue by many works of literature
what you are saying that a robot can never have a "will" of its own.. but are you so sure of that? how are you so sure that a machine if given the ability of self consciousness and thought that it cannot ascend to a level of having thta ability?

I actually played through the game (all side-quests) and again with new game + about a month ago. 90% of the time, however, it was between frameskip 6 and 9 so... I didn't re-read all the dialogue. I've played the game probably four times before that, so I'm only getting the meaning of the dialogue instead of all the conversation.

::edit:: Sorry for the off-topic...

If it was program to be able to override his program to adapt it's function it would be just following it's program. It is said in the game that the robot are not having judgement as they are not evil or good it is the human that make them that way.


It is said in the game that he has no will of his own.

Ah, nice to see a gamer that has liking and apreciation for old games :)

Even if the barrier works outside of the castle, he still obviously needs materials and items from within the castle in order to conjure his barrier, and he doesn't have those available to him in this fight. That ceremonial altar, that circle of power on the floor and the blue lamps surrounding his sphere of mana are what allow him to retain his barrier. Without those items in his possession, he wouldn't be able to summon his barrier in the first place. And, as I stated before in the rules thread, anything that can be categorized as an "item" is forbidden from these tournaments. Sacrificial altars and stationary circles of power are not acessories, armor or weapons, therefore, he's unable to conjure his barrier.

Glenn watched Magus kill Cyrus and then Magus turned him into a Frog. The "fight" lasted three seconds. There's no way Frog could have learned about Magus' barrier in that little amount of time, especially considering that Magus wouldn't have had it prepared for that fight anyway. He wasn't expecting Cyrus and Glenn, and he knew that a defense mechanism like that would have been a waste against those two. Magus is an extremely vain character, he wouldn't have taken that precaution if he didn't have to.

You need to do more homework before making assumptions as hasty as that. Here's the full list of Raziel's Reavers.

The Spectral Reaver - Raziel's Reaver in the Spectral Realm (non elemental)
The Material Reaver - Raziel's standard Material Realm Reaver (non elemental)
The Dark Reaver - Elemental Darkness
The Light Reaver - Elemental Light
The Air Reaver - Elemental Air and Concussive Force
The Fire Reaver - Elemental Fire
The Water Reaver - Elemental Water/Ice
The Earth Reaver - Elemental Earth
The Spirit Reaver - Purified Spirit Energy (not allowed)

Sadly, he does not have any sort of Lightning-based Reaver but I have a solution to that. Should Crono cast Luminaire upon Magus at any point, it is considered to do lightning-based damage, but it is very obviously not an electrical attack. It is a light-based spell (says so in the instruction booklet and the player's guide), therefore, technically Light magic is considered in the same category as Lightning magic. So, Raziel's Light Reaver can obviously substitute.

Raziel can switch between those Reavers instantly and by doing nothing more than thinking about changing the Reaver. Considering the fact that Magus obviously has some sort of flaw in his barrier that alerts enemies to his weakness, Raziel can instantly change his Reaver to suit his new attack method and Magus can't do a thing about it. Plus, should Raziel find himself sick of constantly switching his Reavers, he can use the Material Reaver to do non-elemental damage. Magus has never, under any circumstances shown an ability to absorb non-elemental attacks.

You said it yourself, "Magus' barrier absorbs all magical energy." If Robo's Laser Spin is being absorbed by Magus' barrier, it's magical. Plus, a creature doesn't have to have a will of it's own to use magic. When Lucca re-programmed Robo she inserted her own will into Robo, thereby giving him the ability to use attacks that mimic magic and cause magical damage. Raziel's Reaver is not magical, therefore it would cut right through the barrier either way.

Magus' barrier defenses are against weapons, it's not full-coverage protection. If Magus is crushed by a landslide, even with his barrier up, he's going to die. Being thrown into a concrete crypt repeatedly is beyond Magus' defenses. He'll take the same damage regardless of his barrier.

So, then Superman's ability to fly is magical? Wolverine's Healing Factor is magical? No, those things, like Raziel's Reaver, are not magical. They're natural supernormal enhancements, but no magic is involved in their existence. The Wraith Blade is Raziel's own soul, empowered and twisted through millennia of devouring souls and being trapped inside the Soul Reaver blade. When the blade shattered, the Wraith Blade (Raziel's own soul) bound itself to him naturally because they are one in the same. There was no magic involved whatsoever.

Magus has no defenses.

1. He obviously needs a circle of power, an altar and other materials to summon his barrier. Those items in his throne room aren't just for show. Since they are classified as items, and since he's not in his castle, he has no access to those things, and therefore he can't summon his barrier.

2. Even if his barrier somehow works, Magus obviously has a giveaway with his defenses. The game tells the player which spells to cast, and therefore his weakness is plainly visible.

3. Raziel has a Reaver to match every elemental alignment Magus can use, and a few that Magus can't.

4. Robo can use attacks that deal magical damage because it is Lucca's willpower that gives him the ability. He has no will of his own but he has the will of someone else, and that is why his Laser Spin is a magical attack, which is why it is absorbed by Magus' barrier.

5. Magus still has no defense against TK, and being slammed into a stone crypt over and over will eventually either knock him unconscious or kill him entirely. His barrier protects against weapons not being crushed by a boulder.

Raziel: "You may have survived the Darkness, but there are fates worse than that. Enjoy spending eternity as food for the Elder God."

He wasnt making his barrier with those. He was summoning Lavos. When you arrive this is what he was doing. He doesnt need to summon Lavos in this battle.

Luminaire Destructive dome of pure light. (Lightning elemental.)
Why would it change element because it create light ?
Ultima is considered a non-elemental spell yet it is a full of light.
Crono attack is doing lightning damage it wont actualy change because it's called Luminaire. He can only use attack of the Lightning element. Told again by Spekkio. Twisting the spell wont make you win :)
So he can do fire damage ? It still is no required for Magus to cast Fire. As for the physical i still see no reason why it would actualy be doing any sort of damage that would be more then puny on him.

Now you actualy prove me with that statement that the Reaver is magical. As only enchanted weapon (Which do MAGICAL damage) Can have non-elemental attribute. For elemental attribute like fire it would need physical fire which basicly require a gas and a lighter.(Which i heard he doesnt have and there isnt many gas station in Nosgoth from what i heard) There is no other way. Therefor it is absorbed. So he would be limited to his physical reaver which will prove very useless.

Twisting word wont give you a win on this battle. She doesnt give him her will own will. The machine that you find in the factory have no more will of their own then robo and they can use shadow damage laser as well as other type of laser and sunch. When you will tell me that a diablo2 bot has a will of it's own. I might consider the possibility.

Why would it be beyond his defence to be trown in a crypt? His barrier isnt weapon based. It is Physical based. A landslide would not kill Magus unless he is very deep and end up not being able to breath.

Well considering that Superman power can be supressed without even being touched. It would be Magic. As for Wolverine Healing Factor it would be technological enchancement from gene. The Reaver is not technological or genetic. It is magical as i said above.

Magus has load of defenses.

Correction. To summon Lavos he does.

You proven that the reaver is magical (which doesnt even matter that much) and that he doesnt have lightning damage attacks so that spell and could be casted while also doing physical attack during the whole match and Raziel wouldnt be able to do jack.

Where is the ice ? Where is the lightning ? Luminare is lightning and it is written in manual and spekkio Chrono can use lightning only.

Her will isnt in the machine else spekkio of could given magic and if he had like i said spekkio could give magic and it would be FIRE damage. It is proven there is no will for that damned toy in the game itself. Also, like i said other machine can do these shadow laser attacks and they have no more will then Robo has just like stated in the game. The barrier absorb Magic and elements and make him quite strong almost invul against physical damage.

Robo tackle doesnt ignore his barrier and it is just as physical and similar to a boulder attack... It is against physical not weapons.

Speculation. He might not have been using those items at all to summon Lavos, and had used them solely to conjure his barrier. Plus, it makes a lot more sense that he would be using a circle of power to summon a giant barrier than to create a time rift.

Yes, pure light. It didn't say "a destructive dome of crackling electricity." It said pure light. If a destructive dome of pure light can be considered Lightning based, so can the Light Reaver, since it's a destructive weapon of pure light.

Just because I say "non-elemental damage" doesn't mean it's magic. A lightsaber does non-elemental physical damage. The Reaver is the same.

Superman's powers come directly from his genes, smart guy. He naturally absorbs the light of our yellow sun and that is what makes him Superman. Wolverine's powers are not technological at all. He just simply evolved and adapted. The same applies to Raziel. The Reaver is his own soul, not a magical blade of energy.

If he has the ability to feel compassion for another person and to feel true emotion, then he has a will, just not the same kind as a human. By re-programming Robo, Lucca basically gave him the parameters and guidelines for how he will act. That is bestowing willpower onto a creature. She determined exactly how he would behave, therefore she duplicated her own will and imposed it upon Robo. His attacks are magical.

That's because his entire body is a weapon. Raziel isn't picking up chunks of rock and throwing them at Magus, he's slamming Magus into the surrounding terrain. Magus' barrier won't defend against that, just like it wouldn't defend against being thrown into a pool of lava.

Raziel: "You'll provide ample lubrication for the Wheel of Fate, my fallen enemy."

When you arive you do hear him do the summon. If he wasnt summoning Lavos it wouldnt come. So he has his barrier. This is the whole point of zelaron melee dont try breaking it down for your battle.

Yes, remove the keywords that explain it all. Spekkio himself say Crono cannot use anything else then Lightning magic and the manual says it does lightning. Ultima can be considered has pure light yet it does not do LIGHT damage either hell, ultima is non-elemental. Your currently fighting evidence by removing word to remold a definition of a spell that is clearly explained.

There is a diff. with non-elemental and physical. A lightsaber does physical. Non-elemental is actualy pure magical damage which is why it prove that it is magical.

Oh, really? Then why can Superman power can be disabled when close the that whatever kryptonite ? Without even touching it. He doesnt even need to see it. It just need to be in range. As for Wolverine when the metal was merged to his skeleton by technonology it created a mutation that was create by ? *hint* Techonology *hint* Which created like i said enchancment of ? *hint* his gene *hint*.
now to get to the Reaver (Not the physical one.) Everyone know that spiritual energy is ? *hint* magical *hint*.

Now your changing the rules of zelaron melee to fit your own desire to win the battle. Light damage isnt lightning. Raziel has no lightning damage possibility.

It is clearly said in the game by Lucca that ROBOTS HAVE NO WILL THEY DO WHAT THEY ARE PROGRAMED FOR! God, damnit even spekkio say it how hard is it to understand that he has no will. It isnt because he is programmed to be good that he has a will. You can see many web page that can guess word you think about by asking various question and adapt by itself to what ppl think with result of those test he make ppl pass. Those web page have a will ? No. They can adapt just like Lucca programmed Robo to. Clear, simple and easy to understand. Your fighting proof with something based on nothing of the game where it hold absolutly no ground on anything it cant even be an assumption based on something it is just an imaginary thing that you invented.

Slamming himself on Magus or Magus slammed on a rock. it doesnt change that it is physical and it will still be even less then the puny damage that robo does with physical attack. It would be close to nothing if it damaged at all.

Magus : "you met an hideous fate. Just like that poor fool, Crono!"

EDIT - We're not doing this in here. Check the Flame Forum for my response.

I can't believe I read all of that.