Oh Noez Communism!

KA, in communism there is very little incentive to work hard. Incentive is why we're more productive and have such a great economy. If we try to institute more socialist systems like Europe then we'll end up more like Europe than we want to be (a stunted growth rate.) There is nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I think you missed the point, WKFF. I think he's wanting to address part of the gap while maintaining the profit motive. You have to admit, our system promotes selfishness and greed at the expense of others.

Just to clarify, I'm hardly even talking about Communism in this thread. What I'm suggesting isn't even communist, it's more socialist than anything.

Also, I was simply pointing out the fact that it's interesting that Bill Gates could lose half of his wealth and it wouldn't change his life in any way at all, yet half of his wealth would greatly change the lives of ~3.5 million people.

Also, someone strange; Bill Gates stepped down from head of Microsoft to focus on charitable work. Bet he read my thread.

Just to clarify, I'm hardly even talking about Communism in this thread. What I'm suggesting isn't even communist, it's more socialist than anything. Also, I was simply pointing out the fact that it's interesting that Bill Gates could lose half of his wealth and it wouldn't change his life in any way at all, yet half of his wealth would greatly change the lives of ~3.5 million people. Also, someone strange; Bill Gates stepped down from head of Microsoft to focus on charitable work. Bet he read my thread.

Why should Bill Gates be the only one to do this though? Btw he does donate a lot of money to people less 'fortunate' than him, and most of that money goes to waste anyways because it ends up in the wrong hands (wonder whose hands those are... hm, let me think..) Oh, and What about 40% of the chosen billionaires? Shouldn't we free the banks from chosen hands as well, or isn't that part of your socialist plan? Also, what's wrong with National Socialism?

I expect an intelligent response, btw.

Bill Gates is donating almost all of his money to charity at his passing. Warren Buffet is also leaving his money to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

If you tax people 68% then there is less profit motivation. We have high corporate taxes, but some of our other income taxes being lower is great for our country. If you look at most of Europe their growth is stunted by quite a lot more than the U.S. . There are quite a few homeless people that deserve it. They're lazy as fuck. And the "free loader" problem will only be amplified by more public works. Unemployment insurance, government sponsored retraining, and other things help with unemployment (frictional and structural). There's also cylical unemployment which is an issue sometimes (like now.) The thing is there's almost always a job if you want one. And some people just don't. Also not all people classified as "homeless" don't have a place to stay.

If you look at most of Europe their growth is stunted by quite a lot more than the U.S. .

Surely you must be referring to girth growth?

I compiled a list of gross domestic product (real) growth rate of 214 countries in the world for you. It is a useful measure of economic development. See if you can find the United States.

(Format: Ranking - Name: GDP (real) growth percentage)


1 - Azerbaijan: 31.0%
2 - Timor-Leste: 24.0%
3 - Macau: 16.6%
4 - Angola: 16.3%
5 - Armenia: 13.7%
6 - Sudan: 12.8%
7 - Equatorial Guinea: 12.7%
8 - Georgia: 12.0%
9 - People's Republic of China: 11.4%
10 - Liechtenstein: 11.0%
11 - Cyprus: 10.6%
12 - Slovakia: 10.40%
13 - Latvia: 10.3%
14 - Anguilla: 10.2%
15 - Ethiopia: 9.8%
16 - India: 9.60%
17 - Kazakhstan: 9.5%
18 - Cambodia: 9.1%
19 - Bhutan: 8.8%
20 - Argentina: 8.70%
21 - Liberia: 8.5%
22 - Vietnam: 8.5%
23 - United Arab Emirates: 8.5%
24 - Mongolia: 8.4%
25 - Venezuela: 8.4%
26 - Russia: 8.1%
27 - Uzbekistan: 8.1%
28 - Lithuania: 8.0%
29 - Panama: 7.8%
30 - Qatar: 7.8%
31 - Afghanistan: 7.5%
32 - Mozambique: 7.5%
33 - Peru: 7.5%
34 - Singapore: 7.4%
35 - Estonia: 7.3%
36 - Philippines: 7.3%
37 - Dominican Republic: 7.2%
38 - Egypt: 7.2%
39 - Tajikistan: 7.2%
40 - Uruguay: 7.20%
41 - Ukraine: 7.10%
42 - Cape Verde: 7.0%
43 - Democratic Republic of the Congo: 7.0%
44 - Gambia: 7.0%
45 - Gibraltar: 7.0%
46 - Laos: 7.0%
47 - Turkmenistan: 7.0%
48 - Belarus: 6.9%
49 - Tanzania: 6.9%
50 - Sierra Leone: 6.8%
51 - Vanuatu: 6.8%
52 - Bahrain: 6.6%
53 - Colombia: 6.5%
54 - Cuba: 6.50%
55 - Poland: 6.5%
56 - Kyrgyzstan: 6.5%
57 - São Tomé and Príncipe: 6.5%
58 - Sri Lanka: 6.50%
59 - Kenya: 6.3%
60 - Madagascar: 6.3%
61 - Pakistan: 6.3%
62 - Tunisia: 6.3%
63 - Niue: 6.2%
64 - Bulgaria: 6.1%
65 - Costa Rica: 6.1%
66 - Indonesia: 6.1%
67 - Nigeria: 6.1%
68 - Bangladesh: 6.0%
69 - Czech Republic: 6.00%
70 - Honduras: 6.0%
71 - Moldova: 6.0%
72 - Montenegro: 6.0%
73 - Rwanda: 6.0%
74 - Saint Kitts and Nevis: 6.0%
75 - Uganda: 6.0%
76 - Romania: 5.9%
77 - Serbia: 5.9%
78 - Ghana: 5.8%
79 - Hong Kong: 5.8%
80 - Seychelles: 5.8%
81 - Trinidad and Tobago: 5.8%
82 - Jordan: 5.7%
83 - Malaysia: 5.7%
84 - Malawi: 5.7%
85 - Croatia: 5.6%
86 - Guatemala: 5.6%
87 - Kuwait: 5.6%
88 - Slovenia: 5.60
89 - Bosnia and Herzegovina: 5.5%
90 - Burundi: 5.5%
91 - Maldives: 5.5%
92 - Mauritius: 5.5%
93 - Palau: 5.5%
94 - Samoa: 5.5%
95 - Brazil: 5.40%
96 - Iran: 5.40%
97 - Libya: 5.4%
98 - Oman: 5.3%
99 - Ireland: 5.3%
100 - Zambia: 5.3%
101 - Chile: 5.2%
102 - Isle of Man: 5.2%
103 - French Polynesia: 5.1%
104 - Israel: 5.1%
105 - Saint Lucia: 5.1%
106 - Suriname: 5.1%
107 - Turkey: 5.1%
108 - Albania: 5.0%
109 - Iraq: 5.0%
110 - Luxembourg: 5.0%
111 - South Africa: 5.0%
112 - Turks and Caicos Islands: 4.9%
113 - Lesotho: 4.8%
114 - South Korea: 4.8%
115 - Botswana: 4.7%
116 - Algeria: 4.6%
117 - Bermuda: 4.6%
118 - Macedonia: 5.10%
119 - San Marino: 4.6%
120 - Senegal: 4.6%
121 - Taiwan: 4.6%
122 - Benin: 4.5%
123 - Gabon: 4.5%
124 - Guyana: 4.5%
125 - Namibia: 4.5%
126 - Niger: 4.5%
127 - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 4.4%
128 - Solomon Islands: 4.4%
129 - Mali: 4.3%
130 - Thailand: 4.3%
131 - Burkina Faso: 4.2%
132 - Australia: 4.0%
133 - Barbados: 4.0%
134 - Bolivia: 4.0%
135 - Central African Republic: 4.0%
136 - Paraguay: 4.0%
137 - Papua New Guinea: 4.0%
138 - Finland: 3.9%
139 - Antigua and Barbuda: 3.8%
140 - Spain: 3.8%
141 - Greece: 3.7%
142 - Guinea-Bissau: 3.7%
143 - Andorra: 3.5%
144 - Burma: 3.5%
145 - Haiti: 3.5%
146 - Marshall Islands: 3.5%
147 - Netherlands: 3.50%
148 - Saudi Arabia: 3.50%
149 - Syria: 3.5%
150 - El Salvador: 3.4%
151 - Malta: 3.4%
152 - Sweden: 3.4%
153 - Austria: 3.3%
154 - Cameroon: 3.2%
155 - Djibouti: 3.2%
156 - Dominica: 3.2%
157 - Yemen: 3.2%
158 - Norway: 3.10%
159 - American Samoa: 3.0%
160 - Belize: 3.0%
161 - European Union: 3.0%
162 - Guernsey: 3.0%
163 - Mexico: 3.0%
164 - New Zealand: 3.0%
165 - Nicaragua: 2.9%
166 - United Kingdom: 2.9%
167 - Bahamas: 2.8%
168 - Republic of the Congo: 2.8%
169 - Belgium: 2.7%
170 - Canada: 2.7%
171 - Germany: 2.6%
172 - Somalia: 2.6%
173 - Switzerland: 2.6%
174 - Nepal: 2.5%
175 - Togo: 2.5%
176 - Aruba: 2.4%
177 - Faroe Islands: 2.4%.
178 - Tonga: 2.4%
179 - United States: 2.2%
180 - Morocco: 2.1%
181 - Eritrea: 2.0%
182 - Greenland: 2.0%
183 - United States Virgin Islands: 2.0%
184 - Italy: 1.9%
185 - Japan: 1.9%
186 - Ecuador: 1.8%
187 - France: 1.8%
188 - Iceland: 1.8%
189 - Denmark: 1.7%
190 - Hungary: 1.70%
191 - Portugal: 1.7%
192 - North Korea: 1.6%
193 - Swaziland: 1.6%
194 - Guinea: 1.5%
195 - Jamaica: 1.5%
196 - Mauritania: 1.5%
197 - Côte d'Ivoire: 1.4%
198 - Tuvalu: 1.2%
199 - British Virgin Islands: 1.0%
200 - Netherlands Antilles: 1.0%
201 - Cayman Islands: 0.9%
202 - Grenada: 0.9%
203 - Monaco: 0.9%
204 - Brunei: 0.4%
205 - Federated States of Micronesia: 0.3%
206 - Kiribati: 0.3%
207 - Lebanon: 0.3%
208 - Cook Islands: 0.1%
209 - Comoros: -1.0%
210 - Montserrat: -1.0%
211 - Puerto Rico: -1.2%
212 - Chad: -1.3%
213 - Fiji: -3.1%
214 - Zimbabwe: -6.0%

[1]

If you look at GDP (real) per capita growth rate, the United States ranks better: 106th place out of the 171 countries listed.



What was that you said about stunted growth in "most of Europe"? Let's look at some graphs of currency exchange rates over the past three to five years.[2] European countries versus the United States, of course:

SEK (Swedish Krona) per USD:



GBP per USD:



EUR (Euro) per USD:



CHF (Swiss Franc) per USD:



DKK (Danish Krona) per USD:



Notice a trend? If not, let me spell it out for you:

You fail.

I admit, I made a mistake. It wasn't real GDP growth rates. I misremembered my statistics and it was unemployment rates. Despite the U.S. getting hit pretty pretty hard economically in the past couple years, we're doing alright with Real GDP growth rates. Your little outliers which are doing so doing exceedingly well are mostly lightly populated countries with populations around the size of some of the larger cities in the U.S. Look at your unemployment rates, now think about how the U.S. is on the verge of a recession (if not in one, it's arguable), and then compare it to say, Sweden. Sweden has a 6.1% unemployment rate (in 2007), and the U.S. at that time had a 4.6% unemployment rate (it's now closer to say 5.4% in the horrible situation we're in due to credit market issues and war.)

Second of all, I just want to say -- fuck you, Chruser. I respected you, but if you want to talk down to me then you can suck a big one. You can disagree and call me out, but if you want to be a douche about it you're not even above dirt to me.

U.S.:

GDP - per capita (PPP):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$45,800 (2007 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
2.2% (2007 est.)

Sweden:

GDP - per capita (PPP):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$36,500 (2007 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
2.6% (2007 est.)

Now, the U.S. has over 30 times the population of your country and it's not that far behind on growth. It's also a good chunk ahead on real GDP per capita, despite absorbing hundreds of thousands of penniless, uneducated immigrants annually. Add in the destructive administration of the past 8 years, and our system is performing pretty damn well. It's apples to oranges and we're doing pretty fucking good with all things considered . Your buddies are doing well with growth because they aren't tied up in quagmires and bleeding out debt (which is a reason our currency is devaluing.) They're also more fuel efficient and not as reliant on oil, which is a major determining factor in our economic growth. Neither of those things are due to capitalism itself .

-------------------

Oh yea, I got my info. from CIA.gov

K_A = You sound like Robin Hood.

"I steal from the rich, and give to the poor!"

Sweden has already solved this problem. Taxes over here are high (33-35%) for low- to mid-income takers, and even higher (68% is the ceiling) for high-income takers. Naturally, people complain about the level of taxes, but the social net ensures that no-one has to be homeless or starving.

Education and health care are government-funded, too.